Curse

MuKen · Nov 08, 2005, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Re-tested with input from players on both sides. It seems that the vamp damage does indeed add on, and is completely unstoppable (including absorption). It does NOT show from the attacking player's side. In other words the damage number you see float up is only the base damage, and you are doing another 5 that you don't see.

Also, it is unaffected by Aura of the Lich (does not do half damage like everything else).

MuKen · Nov 08, 2005, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

I repeat, 10% chance != 1 every 10.

Err? For the purposes of comparing its effectiveness to something else, it does equal 1 every 10. You go by expected values, not by outlying possibilities like "well it could theoretically go off every time".

Sekkira · Nov 08, 2005, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

Re-tested with input from players on both sides. It seems that the vamp damage does indeed add on, and is completely unstoppable (including absorption). It does NOT show from the attacking player's side. In other words the damage number you see float up is only the base damage, and you are doing another 5 that you don't see.

Also, it is unaffected by Aura of the Lich (does not do half damage like everything else).

That's because it's life stealing, not damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

Err? For the purposes of comparing its effectiveness to something else, it does equal 1 every 10. You go by expected values, not by outlying possibilities like "well it could theoretically go off every time".

You can't really compare the effectiveness of something if it's in the value of percentage chances against something else that's a constant. Which is what makes the vampiric a better mod for 'damage' as sundering isn't reliable to do that.

MuKen · Nov 08, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

You can't really compare the effectiveness of something if it's in the value of percentage chances against something else that's a constant.

Well you have to use SOME method to compare them, since you have one slot in your bow which can take one OR the other. What would you suggest one do in making this decision, if not use the expected values?

Quote:

Which is what makes the vampiric a better mod for 'damage' as sundering isn't reliable to do that.

Isn't that exactly what the guy you were responding to was saying?

qwe4rty · Nov 08, 2005, 07:39 PM // 19:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by heist23

to the OP: sundering mods are pretty much pointless. say you're a warrior with a sundering sword hilt. you, on average, deal around 42 damage to a spellcaster. 10% of 42 would be 4.2 more damage. so, 46.2 damage to your target would be what you end up with. it's not great at all, people just assumed that 10% was "t3h 00b3r" and would "pWn t3h n00b|3s" and such. they never bothered to do the calculations.

but, keep it on the low. i can still get other mods for cheaper because of these crazy prices for crappy mods like this.

Actually, its NOT 10% increased damage. Its Ignores 10 armor on the target when it happens. I suggest you go ahead and do your 00b3r calculations with a little bit of English comprehension

It can be useful if you are using a spike axe. Why?
-I dont care about sustained dmg over time, statistically, if I use the sundering, it will do around the same dmg.I just want the chance that it happens on a spike.
-There is the POTENTIAL to do it close together. Its not 1 every 10 hits, its a 1 in 10 chance to occur every hit.

Scown-dog · Nov 08, 2005, 11:21 PM // 23:21

I agree completly with qwe4rty. If we are talking DPS then lets go Vampiric. (using a skill like Battle Rage takes full advantage of the added damage)

When it comes to spiking massive damage is everything. The extra penetration, though activated only rarely, is still quite helpfull.

IMO opinion though 'Furious' is the best mod. No need to bring frenzy for me thanks a lot.

Sir Skullcrasher · Nov 08, 2005, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Any mods is good in the game. But i just don't get why people would label certain weapons with 10/10 armour penetration the best weapon in the game.

unienaule · Nov 08, 2005, 11:39 PM // 23:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

And that would be an extra 4.6, not 4.2dmg.

Allllright.

1) Sekkira can't do math, even if it is wrong math. .1*42 = 4.2.

2) For purposes of DPS Calculations, saying it goes off every ten hits is the way to compare it to vampiric.

3) 10% sundering even on 3 hits in a row is not going to do much extra damage. Even when spiking, I would prefer +20 damage over 4 hits as opposed to the chance to do some extra damage.

Sekkira · Nov 08, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

1) Sekkira can't do math, even if it is wrong math. .1*42 = 4.2.

And here I recall it being referred to as a single hit of 10% armour penetration which is +4.6 damage to 60AL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

2) For purposes of DPS Calculations, saying it goes off every ten hits is the way to compare it to vampiric.

Yes yes, but I still stick firm to saying you can't accurately predict DPS on an item which has a chance to do a varible amount of damage. Which is what this is all about, isn't it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by unienaule

3) 10% sundering even on 3 hits in a row is not going to do much extra damage. Even when spiking, I would prefer +20 damage over 4 hits as opposed to the chance to do some extra damage.

I suppose I should now change my stance to start arguing with you so I am suddenly in favor of the sundering mod?

unienaule · Nov 09, 2005, 12:03 AM // 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Yes yes, but I still stick firm to saying you can't accurately predict DPS on an item which has a chance to do a varible amount of damage. Which is what this is all about, isn't it?

I suppose I should now change my stance to start arguing with you so I am suddenly in favor of the sundering mod?

Um, if we're talking over, say 100 hits or more, then yes, you can predict it pretty well. If we're talking over like 5, then you can still predict it, but the results will have a large standard deviation.

As to your last part.... um.... what? As you will notice, only the first point was directed at you.

Sekkira · Nov 09, 2005, 12:19 AM // 00:19

Excuse me if I sound all philosophical here:

Quote:

Sekkira: Pretend you have a 10% chance to hit something, now I'll give you 100 chances of hitting that object
Sekkira: How many times will you hit it?
=====: oh god.. I forgot the terry pratchet logic for that one
=====: in theory, it'd be 10, but other factors are involved with it.. so.. 10% chance each time
Sekkira: Well you have a chance per hit to hit, a small one, but still one none the less
=====: true
Sekkira: it doesn't matter what the percentage of hitting actually is
Sekkira: it all comes down to one thing, you either hit it or you dont.
=====: hehe
Sekkira: If you hit it, would you say you got within that 10% chance on 8% or 4%?
Sekkira: If you miss, do you say "Damn I rolled 11 on the die, so close"
=====: you're confusing, although.. right
Sekkira: There is nothing saying you will hit 10 of those times within the hundred tries, nothing saying you wont hit 10 of those times
Sekkira: The whole point being, that 10% chance does not in any way dictate how many times you will hit
=====: hehe, I know all about that one
=====: 20% chance of skill recharge
=====: when it works, it works a few times in a row
Sekkira: in essense, it's much more unpredicable to than putting it down to an extra 1% armour penetration for dps reasons

Rogmar · Nov 09, 2005, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Small question about mods, does anyone run watchful spirit or mending

when wielding vampiric? I do, but it doesn't seem like an effective way, maybe I should just unequip? It seems kind of annoying to unequip and reequip.

twicky_kid · Nov 09, 2005, 12:35 AM // 00:35

a critical hit is a 10% penetration. sundering is just an increase of critical hits. imagine that it said increases chance for critical hit instead of 10% penetration. it means the same thing but worded differently.

btw its not that sundering has 10% chance of striking. i mean a 10% increase to your criticals would be worth it, BUT sundering only triggers with SKILLS. which mean all those attacks you are doing does absolutly nothing different. don't get me wrong i have used and tested it. when it does trigger it is great (nailed some 60 al class with a 158 dmg final strike b/c of sundering).

since it only triggers with skills it makes this mod horrible. since most wars go with some form of IAS the zealous mod is THE best mod for any warrior.

under IAS you attack 1 per seconds with sword or axe. 3 pips of energy is 1 energy regain per second. under zealous you have 1 pip of energy regen + 1 energy per seconds (3 pips of energy regen) you will have effectively 4 pips of energy regen.you just doubled your energy regen w/o using any skills or attribute points.

rangers are very nasty with the zealous mod as well. their expertise reduces the cost of skills so much that they never really cost over 7 or 8. haven't done the math on this since GwG calculator on speed is crap. if anyone know rate of bow attacks with and w/o IAS let me know.

vampiric i still don't like. the dmg is life stealing so it does not show up and cannot be prevented (as you should notice that shadow dmg and life lose cannot be reduced except by sheilding hands). the -1 hp pip = 2 dmg per second. under IAS you will net 1 hp gain (sword or axe 3). if you plan on getting hp from vampiric don't. w/o any IAS you will accually be losing life. the dmg it does is nice. take in account for 10 hits (enough to charge final thrust) under a 3 vampiric would be an extra 30 dmg. hammer i just don't know about. even under IAS its so slow it really doesn't matter.

bows on the other hand have access to barrage and quick shot. rangers can take full advantage of this mod. the normal dual>qs>savage will add another 20 dmg to the chain. now take 8 man ranger spike you'll get an extra 160 dmg that cannot be stopped as long as the ranger connects with arrow. under fw and rtw only evade or block skills are going to save you.

Former Ruling · Nov 09, 2005, 12:40 AM // 00:40

I did alittle math that is COMPLETLY BASED ON IF THE CHANCES WORKS OUT PERFECTLY. That is, 1 sundering hit per 10 hits. It compares Vampiric and Sundering.

A 5/-1 Vamp over 10 hits is going to take 50 Health from them - that does not change and its not varible - that 5 dmg a hit is going to happen no matter their Armor or what spells their using.

For sundering I picked the most common setup - 80 AL armor to start with (Warriors armor). Remember from 80 AL to 70 AL there is a gain of 13% damage on any given hit (71% to 84% damage done).

To make that extra 50 health decrease like Vamp gives automatically, you would have to be hitting on average of atleast ~270 dmg a hit on their 80 AL armor. (270 at 71% damage comes to about 319.4 dmg on a sundering hit - that is at 84% damage).

The percent increase in 10 AL increments goes down as the AL goes up (60 AL going down to 50 AL is a 19% increase in dmg as an example whereas 80 to 70 is a 13% increase) - making Sundering more useful the LOWER the starting AL.

But (and again..this is GIVEN THE 1 IN 10 HITS) Sundering is only going to be as effective as vamp when your doing in access of 200 dmg a hit (260 in my example because of higher AL) - Which...I dont think you'll see your toon averaging at 200+ dmg a hit..He'd be a killing machine 2-hit killing most casters and you wouldn't need sundering anyway.

Even if it hit 2-3 times in the 10 hit span, you'd still have to be averaging pretty high to get close to the 50 dmg vamp gives no questions asked.

So in short:
Vamp in a 10 hit span will give 50 health decrease (dont want to call it damage and anger someone)

For sundering to give that same health decrease you'd have to be averaging at 200+ dmg a hit if it happened 1 in 10 hits. Sundering is only useful if you get lucky and get multiple sundering shots in that 10 hit period..and even then - Vamp still might beat it and is MUCH more consistent.

Also..Vamp ignores damage reduction..Sundering cant.

(BTW - Thats for a 5/-1 vamp of course. I think this is the reason melee weapon vamp mods dont go all the way to 5/-1 = just so sundering is somewhat useful).

Eonwe · Nov 09, 2005, 12:42 AM // 00:42

There is nothing good about it.

twicky_kid · Nov 09, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

There is nothing good about it.

pretty much. 10% only triggers on skills. vampiric and zealous trigger all the time. furious might be 10% but it triggers on any attack.

MuKen · Nov 09, 2005, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

Yes yes, but I still stick firm to saying you can't accurately predict DPS on an item which has a chance to do a varible amount of damage. Which is what this is all about, isn't it?

No, what this is all about is comparing its effectiveness to other mods, and to do that you use the expected damage. There's no point in your calling down whoever it was for considering it in these terms. I'll ask again, if not that, then just what is it you plan to do to compare them? Or I guess your position is that it doesn't do any DPS since we can't accurately predict it.

Sekkira · Nov 09, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by MuKen

I'll ask again, if not that, then just what is it you plan to do to compare them?

You can't. It's unreliable and therefore not worth it.

MuKen · Nov 09, 2005, 03:55 AM // 03:55

What do you mean you can't compare them? This is an issue of what to do when given this choice which is a part of your character creation. So what do you do when you get to the weapon customization screen? Your brain explodes because there is no way to make this decision?

LifeInfusion · Nov 09, 2005, 05:33 AM // 05:33

One minor strength rune > 10/10 sunder...